> Your exact phrase was: “You can't debate a true believer into becoming an atheist, nor the other way around.” Now maybe you didn’t mean that people can’t change their belief systems but rather something like “you can’t *debate* someone in to changing their beliefs - that they have to arrive at that conclusion themselves. But think abou…
<< I didn't say that persons who are true believers can't become atheists. >>
Your exact phrase was:
“You can't debate a true believer into becoming an atheist, nor the other way around.”
Now maybe you didn’t mean that people can’t change their belief systems but rather something like “you can’t *debate* someone in to changing their beliefs - that they have to arrive at that conclusion themselves.
But think about your own journey In rejecting Catholicism. It’s usually difficult for most people to trace the exact evolution of their thinking. But I doubt it happened overnight and I doubt it happened without a personal experience that challenged what what you knew or thought you knew or a personal encounter or several encounters with people or authors or cultural icons who you respected and took seriously and who introduced the seed of an idea that you had not previously encountered or had encountered but not taken seriously.
Obviously I know nothing about your story but I know it must have been a result of one or more of those things because throughout history, that is the only way anyone who has changed their minds about any belief has done so. In fact it’s the only possible way to do so.
The picture you paint of being adrift alone on a boat and having to figure out how the world works on your own is a noble and romantic idea, but it can’t be completely true.
If it were, that would be like growing up on an isolated island where Catholicism was the one and only way anyone ever had of understanding and explaining how the universe operates - Where you had no access to or even a concept of the existence of things like Greek mythology or history or other religions or science. In that scenario, how likely would it be for you to come to reject Catholicism entirely on your own? I certainly don’t mean to imply that you don’t deserve a great deal of credit for changing your belief system. I’m simply pointing out that most people who do so, don’t do it completely by themselves - even if they aren’t fully aware of all the influences that got them there.
We are all born and raised with a genetic proclivity towards certain fundamental personality traits (usually known as the big five). We are raised by other humans who tell us how the universe operates. As we grow, we encounter teachers and books and media and movies and social media posts and other people with lots of different ideas about how the world operates. Then, based on temperament, personal experiences, and influences, we make decisions about which beliefs we think are worth reinforcing and which are worth updating and which are worth rejecting. Most people get a bit complacent about doing this after about age 30 - unless something drastic happens that causes them to reshape their world view. But the best people, like Lenard Hand, are exemplars of epistemic humility and do this throughout their lives - always taking care never to be *too sure* that they’re right.
That’s an extremely long and rambling way of saying that if a good debater is aware of all the things that influenced them to change their minds about something, they might be able to gently, skillfully and without condescension, point out similar things to other people in accordance with their unique personalities, values and experiences.
So yes, I do believe it is possible to change the mind of a true believer through debate (or rather discussion). Is it always possible? No, of course not! and even when it is, it’s really hard and often not worth the time or effort. But for important people on important issues, I believe it’s worth a try. Democracy can only exist because of persuasion. Once we give up on persuasion, all we have left is force. And that’s not a system I care to go back to.
<< I didn't say that persons who are true believers can't become atheists. >>
Your exact phrase was:
“You can't debate a true believer into becoming an atheist, nor the other way around.”
Now maybe you didn’t mean that people can’t change their belief systems but rather something like “you can’t *debate* someone in to changing their beliefs - that they have to arrive at that conclusion themselves.
But think about your own journey In rejecting Catholicism. It’s usually difficult for most people to trace the exact evolution of their thinking. But I doubt it happened overnight and I doubt it happened without a personal experience that challenged what what you knew or thought you knew or a personal encounter or several encounters with people or authors or cultural icons who you respected and took seriously and who introduced the seed of an idea that you had not previously encountered or had encountered but not taken seriously.
Obviously I know nothing about your story but I know it must have been a result of one or more of those things because throughout history, that is the only way anyone who has changed their minds about any belief has done so. In fact it’s the only possible way to do so.
The picture you paint of being adrift alone on a boat and having to figure out how the world works on your own is a noble and romantic idea, but it can’t be completely true.
If it were, that would be like growing up on an isolated island where Catholicism was the one and only way anyone ever had of understanding and explaining how the universe operates - Where you had no access to or even a concept of the existence of things like Greek mythology or history or other religions or science. In that scenario, how likely would it be for you to come to reject Catholicism entirely on your own? I certainly don’t mean to imply that you don’t deserve a great deal of credit for changing your belief system. I’m simply pointing out that most people who do so, don’t do it completely by themselves - even if they aren’t fully aware of all the influences that got them there.
We are all born and raised with a genetic proclivity towards certain fundamental personality traits (usually known as the big five). We are raised by other humans who tell us how the universe operates. As we grow, we encounter teachers and books and media and movies and social media posts and other people with lots of different ideas about how the world operates. Then, based on temperament, personal experiences, and influences, we make decisions about which beliefs we think are worth reinforcing and which are worth updating and which are worth rejecting. Most people get a bit complacent about doing this after about age 30 - unless something drastic happens that causes them to reshape their world view. But the best people, like Lenard Hand, are exemplars of epistemic humility and do this throughout their lives - always taking care never to be *too sure* that they’re right.
That’s an extremely long and rambling way of saying that if a good debater is aware of all the things that influenced them to change their minds about something, they might be able to gently, skillfully and without condescension, point out similar things to other people in accordance with their unique personalities, values and experiences.
So yes, I do believe it is possible to change the mind of a true believer through debate (or rather discussion). Is it always possible? No, of course not! and even when it is, it’s really hard and often not worth the time or effort. But for important people on important issues, I believe it’s worth a try. Democracy can only exist because of persuasion. Once we give up on persuasion, all we have left is force. And that’s not a system I care to go back to.